An Interview with Author and Illustrator Flavia Z. Drago
Hello and welcome to our interview with the incomparable Flavia Z. Drago! You may know her from the hit picture book trilogy of Gustavo the Shy Ghost, Leila the Perfect Witch, and Vlad the Fabulous Vampire. I believe they are officially referred to as “The World of Gustavo” but sometimes I call them the friendly monsters.
And if you’re already a fan of her sweet and amazing Halloween-y books, just you wait until you find out what she’s currently researching for her PhD! I must have missed my calling in school because I didn’t even know this was an option! Suffice it to say I am sufficiently jelly of her spooky calling and the cool path she is on - so without further ado let’s get on with the show and see what she’s up to!
Ryan: You’re currently working on your PhD, right? I already know the very cool thing that you’re researching, but I don’t want to steal your thunder. Could you tell everyone what that is, and why you chose it?
Flavia: Yes, I am currently on my last year of the PhD, I’m finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel –Wahey! I am researching horror in the children’s picture book - which can be counterintuitive because horror wants to scare, and saying that you want to scare children would be taboo, wouldn’t it? Yet, somehow, many characters, tropes, motifs or the aesthetics of horror ended up in many picture books. I chose this topic because some of my most scary picture book projects couldn’t find a publisher, however publishing “The World of Gustavo” got me thinking about how a genre that is supposed to be scary became “friendly” for children – and those that care for them!.
““...when picture books are ‘scary,’ they tend to use ambiguity - so that the reader can create their own interpretation of what happens in the story.””
Ryan: That’s so cool! I am a gigantic fan of spookiness in picture books. Is there anything you can tell us about your research, any hints at where your work and interviews have taken you?
Flavia: Recently I have been writing about “happy horror” which is when a picture book maker uses the characters, tropes, motifs, or aesthetics of horror without really intending to scare, but rather to drive narratives, or amuse the audience. Most importantly, in happy horror, monsters are not the enemy or main source of threat, but it’s the main characters who have their own struggles, dreams, and fears - and who we empathize with.
For instance, Gustavo the Ghost is not only the main character, but also a visual metaphor for how shyness can make you feel invisible. In Leila, the Perfect Witch, Hansel and Gretel are not the heroes, but rather, it is implied that they are horrible - stealing and burning witches alive!! So, even if the narrative is not about that, there is a bit of role reversal. And in Vlad, the Fabulous Vampire, because of his bright pink cheeks, he is a bit of a misfit in his own world where everything is black and white - making a character that should be scary, sweet instead.
I have also discovered that when picture books are “scary”, they tend to use ambiguity - so that the reader can create their own interpretation of what happens in the story. Was Alberta turned into a pie and eaten by wolves in Alberta: A Cautionary Tale? Has Dillweed killed his parents in Dilweed’s Revenge? Is the rabbit dead in I Want My Hat Back? I will not spoil the answer!
Ryan: While we’re listing spooky books, are you familiar with What There Is Before There Is Anything There by Liniers? I have it ranked as my number one scary picture book for kids - very quirky but truly scary - and I’d love to hear your professional opinion on it considering your research. What makes this book so scary?
Flavia: Great book! I think that what makes it scary is the fact that the monsters are in the place where you are supposed to be safest: home. The ending reminds be a bit of a scene from Stephen King’s It where a girl called Beverly sees blood coming from the bathroom drain, but her father is not able to see it. Leaving her even more vulnerable and isolated because adults are the ones who are supposed to protect you, not to ignore the monster next to you! Right? I also think that many people are afraid of darkness, which is natural - as not being able to see makes one vulnerable. And lastly we don’t know what the creatures really want, so not knowing can be really scary because then your brain conjures all sorts of unpleasantness.
““I have found that in France, Italy and in some Scandinavian countries, there are picture books which would be classified as “too sophisticated, scary or unsuitable” for children in other countries like the UK or USA.””
Ryan: Do you think it’s fair to say that publishers generally seem to shy away from scary picture books? It doesn’t feel to me like they get a truly fair shake in the market. There are a handful of Halloween books every year of course, and a few books about conquering fears. But very rarely do we get picture books that have an intention to actually scare. Why do you think that is - assuming I’m not just imagining things.
Flavia: It seems to me that nowadays we tend to protect children from fear, but it wasn’t always like that. I think that how we understand the idea of childhood and what we consider important changes the books that we make for children. For instance, around the 1700s it was ok to scare children into salvation by threatening them with going to hell if they misbehaved. Then around the 1800s it was ok to scare them into “good behavior,” for instance in books like Struwwelpeter, or Belloc’s Cautionary Tales. And now scary books are perhaps more ambiguous and less overtly moralistic.
I also suspect this trend is also partly motivated by economic interest. For instance, Pinocchio was supposed to die to show that bad behavior has dreadful consequences, but pressured by the public and by his publisher, Collodi resurrected the puppet and gave him a happy ending. The interviews I did, and my own experiences tell me that there are always considerations on whether people will buy a book which simply has scary elements in it. Now imagine making a scary book for kids – crazy idea!
Ryan: Whether we’re still talking about spookiness or not, do you think there’s a significant difference between the types of children’s books published in the US vs other countries?
Flavia: There are fabulous books and publishers in the U.S., but I have found that in France, Italy and in some Scandinavian countries, there are picture books which would be classified as “too sophisticated, scary or unsuitable” for children in other countries like the UK or USA. It seems to me that, in these countries, smaller publishers might allow more freedom, and I speculate that this is particularly true of publishers which are not looking to publish 20 co-editions and have to appeal to a global market - if that makes sense.
Ryan: It’s been 4 years now since Gustavo the Shy Ghost came out, and it’s truly an instant classic for the Halloween season. Could you tell us a little bit about the history of its creation? How long ago did you write it? Is it a story you used to launch your career while you were looking for an agent? Did you have publishers fighting over our favorite shy ghost?
Flavia: Around 2015-2016 – before it became a hellish place – I used Twitter a lot! One day I was randomly thinking about the reason why ghosts wear sheets. “It must be because they are shy,” I thought. I wrote a tweet about it and thought it could make a fun picture book.
Later, in 2018, I finished the MA in Children’s Picture Books at ARU in Cambridge, I didn’t have an agent, but Deirdre McDermott at Walker Books liked my work from the graduation show and asked me to go and have a chat with them. I really, really, really wanted to impress them, but they were not really keen on any of the ideas I had in my portfolio – or they already had similar books – so when they asked me if I had more ideas, I told them that I wanted to make a picture book about why ghosts wear sheets, which fortunately they thought had potential.
So, no one was fighting for the story because it didn’t exist, Walker Books just gave me a chance to develop it, and ever since, they have been the most wonderful and supportive team to work with!
Ryan: The main characters of your friendly monster trilogy (Gustavo, Leila, and Vlad) all teach social/emotional lessons like being yourself and dealing with perfectionism and the importance of community. What was your inspiration in writing specifically about all of these topics for kids?
Flavia: For those books my main inspiration came from childhood memories, my family and my love for the horror genre and fairy tales. I just want to make the books I would have liked to have as a child, and about things I enjoy drawing.
Gustavo and Leila and Vlad are all very friendly and lovable characters right from page 1, and of course that’s what makes them so endearing. They certainly aren’t keeping kids up at night.
Ryan: So, I was curious - would you have any interest in giving my kids nightmares with a book one day in the future?
Well, at the moment I am currently in the process of developing a project that will hopefully be scary! But it’s still early to tell how it will turn out.
Ryan: At some point a few years ago I stumbled upon a display in my local Target that had your face on it - but it wasn’t in the book section. It was in home goods or something of that sort, and it was covered in skulls and beautiful decorations. I said, “Hey I know her!” Do you know what I’m referring to? You must be very busy - what is this other career of yours? Do you have anything else of that sort coming up?
Flavia: Ho ho ho! Honestly making that Day of the Dead collection for Target was such a treat, I am always open to do collaborations. I used to work as a graphic designer before I became a picture book maker, so if anyone invited me to work on a packaging project for chocolate, or design objects, or patterns for clothing I would be thrilled to do it, but I would probably not be able to do it because there’s usually a confidentiality clause which is a shame!
Ryan: I must ask the question on everyone’s mind. Do you have any new children’s books coming up? Is your friendly monster series complete as a trilogy? Are there any cryptic hints you can leave us with?
Flavia: Other than the scary book, there might be more ideas for other characters in the collection. But first, I have to finish the PhD!
Ryan: Now that you’re officially becoming one of the world’s foremost experts on spookiness in children’s literature, can you leave us with a short list of your favorite authors and illustrators new and old who dared to scare kids?
Flavia: I think that the scariest book I came across is Slugs (Greenberg and Chess). This book is a cheerful poem about the many different ways in which you can kill slugs. In the end, a bunch of slugs kill, chop into bits and put a little boy in a bin. I think it would be very hard to get anything like that printed nowadays! I also love Evie and the Truth About Witches by John Martz, and The Garden Witch by Kyle Beaudette. The endings in those books are great! I also love anything made by Taylor Dolan, her collection Ghoul Scouts is ace! I also really like Thornhill by Pam Smy, it’s such a great and original way to tell a ghost story.
Ryan: What are your top 3 scary movies?
Flavia:
The Mexican cult film called Poison for the Fairies (1986) about two girls, where a girl called Veronica, bullies a girl called Flavia – like me! – into believing that she, Veronica, is a witch. The ending is *chef’s kiss*!
It, the 1990 mini-series based on Stephen King’s novel. Made me shower for weeks and weeks with my eyes wide open!
Guillermo del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth (2006) which is really scary, not because there are monsters, but because there are humans!
Bonus: What We Do in the Shadows (2014) makes me so happy!
Wow! Thanks so much to Flavia Z. Drago for joining us and taking part in this interview! Is that just about the coolest PhD ever? It’s always a real pleasure to talk scary stories and swap spooky book discoveries, and I legitimately can’t wait to see what she gets up to next in her career. Keep an eye out for the spooky book she hinted at, and who do I need to talk to around here to get those scarier projects she mentioned that couldn’t find a home published right away?!
